blu ray copies of Kill Bill Vol.1 and Kill Bill Vol.2

[Greenie17]

I am trying to back up my blu ray copies of Kill Bill Vol.1 and Kill Bill Vol.2

In both cases, the Rip and write appears successfull however the copy hangs up before the menu appears. I have tried using several methods:

1. DVD Fab (Blu Ray to Blu Ray Full Disk) using the VSO engine
2. DVD Fab (Blu Ray to Blu Ray Full Disk) using the ImgBurn engine
3. DVD Fab (Blu Ray to Blu Ray Full Disk) to ISO on my Hard Drive

In all cases, the playback halts in the same place before the blu ray menu comes up. Is there a known problem with these two blu ray's?

This was supposedly a problem back in 2010 but I am having this issue now. The originals play jsut fine. The copies hang at the menu loading.

LOGS:

[Greenie17]

2012-08-16 00:12:36 ---- ******************** Log session stop 16-Aug 00:12:36.853 PID 9084********************
2012-08-15 23:58:02 Info Disc (BD-ROM) not empty.
2012-08-15 23:58:01 Info Compatible media types : DVD-R, DVD-RW Seq., DVD-RW RO, DVDRAM, DVD+R, DVD+RW, CD-R, CD-RW, DL DVD+R, DL DVD-R, Blu Ray-R Seq., Blu Ray-R Rnd., Blu Ray-RE
2012-08-15 23:58:01 Info Drive has Serial ATA physical interface
2012-08-15 23:58:01 Info New Drive selected : 2:0:0 - HL-DT-ST BD-RE WH12LS30 1.00 [H] (Ide)
2012-08-15 23:55:24 Info Disc (BD-ROM) not empty.
2012-08-15 23:55:11 Info Parsing disc ...
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info WRITE SUCCESS: Burn process successful with minor warning
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:51]: Finalisation complete
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:51]: Close disc - Completed with warning "Code 05 30 05 [Illegal request, Cannot write medium, Incompatible format]"
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:51]: Closing disc
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:51]: Close session - Completed with success
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:34]: Closing session
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:34]: Close track - Completed with success
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:31]: Closing track
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:31]: Flush device cache - Completed with success
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:26]: Flushing device cache
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Info FINALISATION [23:54:26]: finalisation started
2012-08-15 23:54:51 Warning Finalization Time 00:00:24 - Total completion time 01:31:18 - finalisation report follow
2012-08-15 23:54:26 Info Write finished in 01:30:53 - Finalization start here. Avg. burn rate 7.28
2012-08-15 22:24:01 Info Lead-in burning time (mS) 28234
2012-08-15 22:23:33 Info Write started 24438784 sectors to write
2012-08-15 22:23:33 Info Writing speed requested x4.0, effective x4.0
2012-08-15 22:23:33 Info Available write speed: 4x ,2x
2012-08-15 22:23:33 Info Media ID: TDKBLD-RFB-00
2012-08-15 22:23:33 Info Media type: BD-R Sequential
2012-08-15 22:23:33 Info Ultra DMA mode 2 (ATA33)
2012-08-15 22:23:33 Info Write started
2012-08-15 22:23:29 Info Writable disc BD-R Sequential inserted. Ready to write
2012-08-15 22:22:58 Info Disc ejected by user.
2012-08-15 21:28:48 Info Disc (BD-ROM) not empty.
2012-08-15 21:28:46 Info Compatible media types : DVD-R, DVD-RW Seq., DVD-RW RO, DVDRAM, DVD+R, DVD+RW, CD-R, CD-RW, DL DVD+R, DL DVD-R, Blu Ray-R Seq., Blu Ray-R Rnd., Blu Ray-RE
2012-08-15 21:28:46 Info Drive has Serial ATA physical interface
2012-08-15 21:28:46 Info New Drive selected : 2:0:0 - HL-DT-ST BD-RE WH12LS30 1.00 [H] (Ide)
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info Current Drive selected : 8:0:0 - ATAPI iHAS324 B AL1B [F] (Ide)
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info Using Advanced SPTI interface
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info System default language : English (United States)
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info User default language : English (United States)
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info DLL Version : 4.0.21.489
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info DLL : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\vso_hwe.dll
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info Version : 8, 2, 0, 0
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info ExeName : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\DVDFab.exe
2012-08-15 21:28:24 Info OS : Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate (Build 7601: Service Pack 1)
2012-08-15 21:28:24 ---- ******************** Log session start 15-Aug 21:28:24.316 PID 9084********************


2012-08-15 06:02:37 ---- ******************** Log session stop 15-Aug 06:02:37.584 PID 10084********************
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info Current Drive selected : 8:0:0 - ATAPI iHAS324 B AL1B [F] (Ide)
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info Using Advanced SPTI interface
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info System default language : English (United States)
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info User default language : English (United States)
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info DLL Version : 4.0.21.489
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info DLL : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\vso_hwe.dll
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info Version : 8, 2, 0, 0
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info ExeName : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\DVDFab.exe
2012-08-15 06:00:52 Info OS : Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate (Build 7601: Service Pack 1)
2012-08-15 06:00:52 ---- ******************** Log session start 15-Aug 06:00:52.641 PID 10084********************


2012-08-12 13:08:29 ---- ******************** Log session stop 12-Aug 13:08:29.408 PID 6596********************
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info WRITE SUCCESS: Burn process successful with minor warning
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:18:31]: Finalisation complete
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:18:31]: Close disc - Completed with success
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:18:25]: Closing disc
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:18:25]: Close session - Completed with success
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:17:33]: Closing session
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:17:33]: Close track - Completed with warning "Code 05 24 00 [Illegal request, Invalid field in CDB]"
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:17:33]: Closing track
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:17:33]: Flush device cache - Completed with success
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:17:28]: Flushing device cache
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Info FINALISATION [12:17:28]: finalisation started
2012-08-12 12:18:31 Warning Finalization Time 00:01:03 - Total completion time 00:28:11 - finalisation report follow
2012-08-12 12:17:28 Info Write finished in 00:27:08 - Finalization start here. Avg. burn rate 2.20
2012-08-12 11:50:20 Info Lead-in burning time (mS) 636
2012-08-12 11:50:20 Info Write started 2202432 sectors to write
2012-08-12 11:50:20 Info Init success: DVD-RW
2012-08-12 11:50:19 Info Writing speed requested x2.0, effective x2.0
2012-08-12 11:50:19 Info Format completed
2012-08-12 11:50:09 Info Format start
2012-08-12 11:50:09 Info Available write speed: 2x
2012-08-12 11:50:09 Info Media ID: RITEKW01
2012-08-12 11:50:09 Info Media type: DVD-RW
2012-08-12 11:50:09 Info DMA is not available on this bus type
2012-08-12 11:50:08 Info Scanned files #35, folder #2 - total size 4509423616 b. (4.20 Gb.)
2012-08-12 11:50:08 Info Inserted media type : DVD-RW
2012-08-12 11:50:08 Info Write started
2012-08-12 11:42:50 Info Rewritable disc DVD-RW inserted. Ready to erase and write
2012-08-12 11:42:49 Info Compatible media types : DVD-R, DVD-RW Seq., DVD-RW RO, DVDRAM, DVD+R, DVD+RW, CD-R, CD-RW, DL DVD+R, DL DVD-R
2012-08-12 11:42:49 Info Drive has Serial ATA physical interface
2012-08-12 11:42:49 Info New Drive selected : 8:1:0 - ATAPI iHAS324 Y BL1W [G] (Ide)
2012-08-12 11:42:08 Info Rewritable disc DVD-RW inserted. Ready to erase and write
2012-08-12 11:41:47 Info Parsing disc ...
2012-08-12 11:41:39 Info Disc ejected by user.
2012-08-12 11:41:33 Info Rewritable disc DVD-RW inserted. Ready to erase and write
2012-08-12 11:41:31 Info Compatible media types : DVD-R, DVD-RW Seq., DVD-RW RO, DVDRAM, DVD+R, DVD+RW, CD-R, CD-RW, DL DVD+R, DL DVD-R
2012-08-12 11:41:31 Info Drive has Serial ATA physical interface
2012-08-12 11:41:31 Info New Drive selected : 8:1:0 - ATAPI iHAS324 Y BL1W [G] (Ide)
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info Current Drive selected : 8:0:0 - ATAPI iHAS324 B AL1B [F] (Ide)
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info Using Advanced SPTI interface
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info System default language : English (United States)
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info User default language : English (United States)
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info DLL Version : 4.0.21.489
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info DLL : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\vso_hwe.dll
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info Version : 8, 2, 0, 0
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info ExeName : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\DVDFab.exe
2012-08-12 11:40:53 Info OS : Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate (Build 7601: Service Pack 1)
2012-08-12 11:40:53 ---- ******************** Log session start 12-Aug 11:40:53.694 PID 6596********************


2012-08-11 16:41:10 ---- ******************** Log session stop 11-Aug 16:41:10.640 PID 9596********************
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info Current Drive selected : 8:0:0 - ATAPI iHAS324 B AL1B [F] (Ide)
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info Using Advanced SPTI interface
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info System default language : English (United States)
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info User default language : English (United States)
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info DLL Version : 4.0.21.489
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info DLL : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\vso_hwe.dll
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info Version : 8, 2, 0, 0
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info ExeName : C:\Program Files (x86)\DVDFab 8 Qt\DVDFab.exe
2012-08-11 15:38:16 Info OS : Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate (Build 7601: Service Pack 1)
2012-08-11 15:38:16 ---- ******************** Log session start 11-Aug 15:38:16.419 PID 9596********************

[Greenie17]

DVDFab 8.2.0.0 (2012/08/15 06:00:43)

0m 01.92s: GPUAccelerate: 12345
0m 01.98s: CUDA cap: 0
0m 01.98s: Support coreavc decode: 0
0m 01.98s: Graphics info: NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GT : 4.20 : 1.1
0m 02.00s: Qt Translator file load success
0m 02.14s: Load config successful.
0m 02.16s: Init profile data driver sucessful.
0m 06.28s: Init GPU settings sucessful.
0m 06.28s: option dvd2dvd 1 dvd2mobile 1 bluray2bluray 1 bd2mobile 1 bd23d 1 bd2dvd 1 file2dvd 1 file2bluray 1 file2mobile 1 filemover 1
0m 06.29s: dvd2dvd:dvd2mobile:blu-ray2blu-ray:blu-ray2mobile:blu-ray23d:blu-ray2dvd:file2mobile:file2dvd:file2bluray:
0m 06.64s: Config ExBar successful.
0m 06.64s: dvd2dvd have 8 elements.
0m 06.77s: dvd2mobile have 32 elements.
0m 07.55s: blu-ray2blu-ray have 4 elements.
0m 07.57s: blu-ray2mobile have 21 elements.
0m 08.08s: blu-ray23d have 7 elements.
0m 08.22s: blu-ray2dvd have 1 elements.
0m 08.25s: file2mobile have 31 elements.
0m 09.00s: file2dvd have 1 elements.
0m 09.02s: file2bluray have 1 elements.
0m 09.34s: Config work ui controls successful.
0m 10.62s: Init burn engine successful.
0m 10.65s: StartNotify successful.
0m 29.15s: opening folder D:/Bluray/ARMAGEDDON_USA/BDMV/
0m 29.48s: got bdmv
0m 30.45s: got extended bdinfo


DVDFab 8.2.0.0 (2012/08/15 21:28:16)

0m 01.61s: GPUAccelerate: 12345
0m 01.61s: CUDA cap: 0
0m 01.61s: Support coreavc decode: 0
0m 01.61s: Graphics info: NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GT : 4.20 : 1.1
0m 01.62s: Qt Translator file load success
0m 01.66s: Load config successful.
0m 01.67s: Init profile data driver sucessful.
0m 05.17s: Init GPU settings sucessful.
0m 05.18s: option dvd2dvd 1 dvd2mobile 1 bluray2bluray 1 bd2mobile 1 bd23d 1 bd2dvd 1 file2dvd 1 file2bluray 1 file2mobile 1 filemover 1
0m 05.18s: dvd2dvd:dvd2mobile:blu-ray2blu-ray:blu-ray2mobile:blu-ray23d:blu-ray2dvd:file2mobile:file2dvd:file2bluray:
0m 05.39s: Config ExBar successful.
0m 05.40s: dvd2dvd have 8 elements.
0m 05.52s: dvd2mobile have 32 elements.
0m 06.31s: blu-ray2blu-ray have 4 elements.
0m 06.33s: blu-ray2mobile have 21 elements.
0m 06.85s: blu-ray23d have 7 elements.
0m 06.99s: blu-ray2dvd have 1 elements.
0m 07.02s: file2mobile have 31 elements.
0m 07.78s: file2dvd have 1 elements.
0m 07.80s: file2bluray have 1 elements.
0m 08.12s: Config work ui controls successful.
0m 08.68s: Init burn engine successful.
0m 08.72s: StartNotify successful.
0m 08.75s: opening drive H
0m 08.75s: got media type 15
0m 09.68s: got max lba 24438783
0m 10.38s: type Blu-ray BDMV
0m 10.38s: volume label KILLBILL1_US
0m 10.41s: aacs 1 bd+ 0
0m 13.33s: Java protection is removed by StealthyClone anti-protection.
0m 13.40s: got discinfo
0m 13.50s: got bdmv
0m 13.51s: Vendor: HL-DT-ST
0m 13.51s: Product: BD-RE WH12LS30
0m 13.51s: Revision: 1.00
0m 13.51s: Vendor specific:
0m 13.52s: AACS version: 1
0m 13.52s: Number of concurrent AGIDs: 1
0m 13.52s: Supports bus encryption: NO
0m 13.52s: Supports binding nonce generation: YES
0m 13.52s: Supports Hybrid discs: NO
0m 13.52s: got agid 0
0m 13.54s: sent host cert chal
0m 13.55s: got drive cert chal
0m 13.55s: BEC 0
0m 13.55s: DRIVE_VENDOR 0x0074
0m 13.58s: got drive key
0m 14.02s: got host key signature
0m 14.02s: verified drive signature
0m 14.02s: verified host signature
0m 14.05s: sent host signature and key point
0m 14.06s: got bus key
0m 14.07s: got agid 0
0m 14.09s: sent host cert chal
0m 14.09s: got drive cert chal
0m 14.09s: BEC 0
0m 14.09s: DRIVE_VENDOR 0x0074
0m 14.13s: got drive key
0m 14.13s: got host key signature
0m 14.13s: verified drive signature
0m 14.14s: verified host signature
0m 14.17s: sent host signature and key point
0m 14.17s: got bus key
0m 14.17s: got volume id
0m 14.18s: got volume id mac
0m 14.18s: volume id is correct
0m 14.18s: got vid
0m 14.23s: blu-ray BFD9183D4D59A0C690446E532AA4CFFCC8710FBA
0m 14.85s: cert BEE=0x00 same
0m 15.53s: D 9A27E6D3
0m 15.54s: got vuk
0m 15.54s: got unit key 1
0m 20.59s: got extended bdinfo
0m 20.59s: opened blu-ray
55m 13.34s: opening drive H
55m 13.34s: got media type 16
55m 13.41s: got max lba 0
147m 06.81s: opening drive H
147m 07.65s: got media type 15
147m 08.14s: got max lba 24438783
147m 10.01s: type Blu-ray BDMV
147m 10.01s: volume label KILLBILL2_US
147m 10.03s: aacs 1 bd+ 0
148m 01.74s: Java protection is removed by StealthyClone anti-protection.
148m 01.82s: got discinfo
148m 01.88s: got bdmv
148m 01.89s: Vendor: HL-DT-ST
148m 01.89s: Product: BD-RE WH12LS30
148m 01.90s: Revision: 1.00
148m 01.90s: Vendor specific:
148m 01.90s: AACS version: 1
148m 01.90s: Number of concurrent AGIDs: 1
148m 01.90s: Supports bus encryption: NO
148m 01.90s: Supports binding nonce generation: YES
148m 01.90s: Supports Hybrid discs: NO
148m 01.91s: got agid 0
148m 01.93s: sent host cert chal
148m 01.93s: got drive cert chal
148m 01.93s: BEC 0
148m 01.94s: DRIVE_VENDOR 0x0074
148m 01.97s: got drive key
148m 01.97s: got host key signature
148m 01.97s: verified drive signature
148m 01.97s: verified host signature
148m 02.01s: sent host signature and key point
148m 02.02s: got bus key
148m 02.03s: got agid 0
148m 02.05s: sent host cert chal
148m 02.05s: got drive cert chal
148m 02.05s: BEC 0
148m 02.06s: DRIVE_VENDOR 0x0074
148m 02.09s: got drive key
148m 02.09s: got host key signature
148m 02.09s: verified drive signature
148m 02.10s: verified host signature
148m 02.13s: sent host signature and key point
148m 02.13s: got bus key
148m 02.13s: got volume id
148m 02.13s: got volume id mac
148m 02.14s: volume id is correct
148m 02.14s: got vid
148m 02.19s: blu-ray C74010679A48DEDCF11A175FB921BDC42930E15F
148m 02.92s: cert BEE=0x00 same
148m 03.46s: D ED8D9C05
148m 03.47s: got vuk
148m 03.47s: got unit key 1
148m 07.51s: got extended bdinfo
148m 07.51s: opened blu-ray
156m 26.37s: user cancelled
157m 06.42s: Blu-ray Copy: Full Disc
157m 06.42s: Source: H:/BDMV/
157m 06.42s: SourceSize: 40964 MB
157m 06.42s: RemoveHDAudio: 0
157m 06.42s: OutputSize: 46100 MB
157m 06.43s: OutputDisc: BDMV
157m 06.43s: OutputTarget: BD50
157m 06.43s: OutputVideo: 1080p/i
157m 44.08s: read error: 0 12218081 12219893 12219519 0
161m 17.04s: read error: 0 12218081 12219893 12219519 0
161m 29.73s: read error: 0 12218081 12219893 12219519 0
161m 45.07s: read error: 0 12218081 12219893 12219519 0


DVDFab 8.2.0.0 (2012/08/16 00:33:10)

0m 02.15s: GPUAccelerate: 12345
0m 02.15s: CUDA cap: 0
0m 02.15s: Support coreavc decode: 0
0m 02.16s: Graphics info: NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GT : 4.20 : 1.1
0m 02.18s: Qt Translator file load success
0m 02.36s: Load config successful.
0m 02.39s: Init profile data driver sucessful.
0m 06.50s: Init GPU settings sucessful.
0m 06.50s: option dvd2dvd 1 dvd2mobile 1 bluray2bluray 1 bd2mobile 1 bd23d 1 bd2dvd 1 file2dvd 1 file2bluray 1 file2mobile 1 filemover 1
0m 06.51s: dvd2dvd:dvd2mobile:blu-ray2blu-ray:blu-ray2mobile:blu-ray23d:blu-ray2dvd:file2mobile:file2dvd:file2bluray:
0m 06.83s: Config ExBar successful.
0m 06.83s: dvd2dvd have 8 elements.
0m 06.95s: dvd2mobile have 32 elements.
0m 07.73s: blu-ray2blu-ray have 4 elements.
0m 07.75s: blu-ray2mobile have 21 elements.
0m 08.26s: blu-ray23d have 7 elements.
0m 08.40s: blu-ray2dvd have 1 elements.
0m 08.42s: file2mobile have 31 elements.
0m 09.18s: file2dvd have 1 elements.
0m 09.20s: file2bluray have 1 elements.
0m 09.51s: Config work ui controls successful.
0m 14.88s: Init burn engine successful.
0m 14.95s: StartNotify successful.
0m 14.95s: opening drive H
0m 14.96s: got media type 15
0m 15.27s: got max lba 24438783
0m 15.98s: type Blu-ray BDMV
0m 15.99s: volume label KILLBILL1_US
0m 16.02s: aacs 1 bd+ 0
0m 16.83s: Java protection is removed by StealthyClone anti-protection.
0m 16.90s: got discinfo
0m 17.01s: got bdmv
0m 17.01s: Vendor: HL-DT-ST
0m 17.01s: Product: BD-RE WH12LS30
0m 17.02s: Revision: 1.00
0m 17.02s: Vendor specific:
0m 17.02s: AACS version: 1
0m 17.02s: Number of concurrent AGIDs: 1
0m 17.02s: Supports bus encryption: NO
0m 17.02s: Supports binding nonce generation: YES
0m 17.02s: Supports Hybrid discs: NO
0m 17.03s: got agid 0
0m 17.04s: sent host cert chal
0m 17.05s: got drive cert chal
0m 17.05s: BEC 0
0m 17.05s: DRIVE_VENDOR 0x0074
0m 17.09s: got drive key
0m 17.56s: got host key signature
0m 17.56s: verified drive signature
0m 17.57s: verified host signature
0m 17.60s: sent host signature and key point
0m 17.60s: got bus key
0m 17.62s: got agid 0
0m 17.64s: sent host cert chal
0m 17.64s: got drive cert chal
0m 17.64s: BEC 0
0m 17.64s: DRIVE_VENDOR 0x0074
0m 17.68s: got drive key
0m 17.68s: got host key signature
0m 17.68s: verified drive signature
0m 17.68s: verified host signature
0m 17.72s: sent host signature and key point
0m 17.72s: got bus key
0m 17.73s: got volume id
0m 17.73s: got volume id mac
0m 17.73s: volume id is correct
0m 17.73s: got vid
0m 17.80s: blu-ray BFD9183D4D59A0C690446E532AA4CFFCC8710FBA
0m 18.52s: cert BEE=0x00 same
0m 19.18s: D 9A27E6D3
0m 19.19s: got vuk
0m 19.20s: got unit key 1
0m 24.56s: got extended bdinfo
0m 24.56s: opened blu-ray
0m 42.70s: Blu-ray Copy: Full Disc
0m 42.70s: Source: H:/BDMV/
0m 42.70s: SourceSize: 34352 MB
0m 42.70s: RemoveHDAudio: 0
0m 42.70s: OutputSize: 46100 MB
0m 42.70s: OutputDisc: BDMV
0m 42.71s: OutputTarget: BD50
0m 42.71s: OutputVideo: 1080p/i

[Greenie17]

No replies at all? How did we fix the initial problem playing Kill Bill?

[SuperFist]

Mine play without issue. I don't understand why you're having problems with them.