Running StreamFab Inside Win7 Hosted VirtualBox

[ms-dfav]

I meant from a TLS 1.2 will eventually be depreciated and sites won't let you connect period point of view. Not a you have no security what so ever point of view.

Depreciations happen all the time, but its not like there will be no software updated for Win7 to reflect that. There are also projects like VxKex and backported browsers that will keep Win7 alive for at least a few years. And it is worth mentioning that I'm not immortal, so I don't really care what will happen in 50 years

See I've never had much if any issue with updates breaking things.

My experience there is completely different. This applies to all the OSes, not just windows, and I remember at least a few times when after an update the system wouldn't even boot. I like setting things up my way and then expect for them to be working the next day. Also, the next year. Not happening with constant surprises / updates.

Also, no one really cares about backward compatibility and you can see it everywhere - constant Internet access is assumed and required. Even technologies like dockers which seem to be engineered to provide some form of archiving 'the working state' are quite volatile - you cannot really replicate anything byte-for-byte which means that constant fixing of libraries that just worked yesterday will provide food for my family for years to come

It's a matter of choice - and I'm glad that - at least to some degree - it still exists. Win7 is one of the options. Hopefully, the choice will never disappear completely, although I suppose it will get thinner.

And you usually want to reboot your system at least that often any way.

Nope, I like uptime measured in months instead, as restarting everything is a huge chore for me. Preparing for shutdown, then afterwards decrypting, mounting, logging in, starting tasks again, making sure they're really the same as before etc. is not exactly a relaxing experience. If you're just browsing the web and answering emails, it's not a problem. Anything more complicated and you're constantly wasting time. Like, you say you're an admin - are you really restarting all the machines in the server room, just 'because'?

Trust me, if we wanted to keep you from plugging in a flash drive, you would literally not be able to plug in a flash drive... or any USB device for that matter

Yes, being a network administrator you'd think that

[NewMelle]

out of curiosity, with your main system being windows 7, how are you planning to keep using the internet?

btw the settings for things like screen saver are so buried because they are not really used any more mainstream. Defaults are to sleep the screens or the computer within 3 or 10 minutes.

I do have a Win11 box set up. I simply don't care for the simpleton interface of Win10/11. The Win10 and 11 VMs completely negate the TLS issue, the browsers installed are the latest stable versions.

The Wife's computer has only generic software on it so it will "upgrade" to 11 just fine and she has to use Win10 at work and is already numb to it. The only thing the Win7 file/print server does is house shares and share the laser jet and inkjet printers. The only thing the Media PC does is connect to my media server which has no need for point to point encryption. Occasionally a google search and if it comes to it that will downgrade to Win10/11 just fine.

I suspect better than half of the people out there have a screen saver set. Sleep on my 110V systems has been more of a nuisance than a benefit however my 3 laptops are set to sleep. I have no mechanical disks in my workstation any more so sleep is nearly pointless there. My point is settings that were once intuitive to find are now buried dialogs deep and search is actually faster. Most people simply "use" a computer. I "utilize" it. There is a difference.

There are numerous endpoint security options out there and nearly all can disable ANY USB port on ANY connected PC either by using ADDS or proprietary client modules and has been around for a VERY long time. I was also an network administrator (back in the day before everything was CLICK) and also had hundreds of clients across 4 states. Some locations DID in fact disable USB ports and optical drives as the second largest threat to corporate security is detachable media and the first employee's themselves.

At the last place I worked I helped IT with a test a week before Infosec training was due to roll out. I set up 20 thumb drives (large ones) with a small utility that would launch in the background upon insertion and send a report to IT as to who inserted it at which workstation and when then quietly delete itself. I left them laying around in places like the break room and bathrooms or the edge of aisles. Every single one was inserted in a work machine. Every single one. Endpoint was immediately hardened and USB use was tightly controlled after that.

As far as drivers and forced updates go, MS has their heads firmly inserted up their collective asses. I've fought more driver issues since 10 came out (on older systems) than I've had sex and I'm in no way a cold fish. With Win7 I was able to uninstall and block updates that broke something else on the machine. Not any more. Now if I'm lucky there's a reg hack to fix it.

As you are a network admin I can see how you would feel certain things are not "mainstream" but I also had hundreds of clients that were not corporate that DID have software and hardware other than work related on their systems. Most had a screen saver set up despite the fact they were using LCD/LED monitors.

[NewMelle]

You can switch to the 'snapshots view' via clicking on the three blue dots rhs of the VM name and selecting 'Snapshots'. Afterwards you'll get dedicated buttons to taking / restoring snapshots etc. and also the snapshots tree in the center. Quite convenient... well, when it works I mean.

I don't know your individual case but UUID problems usually occur when manually copying VM files instead of properly 'importing' the machines from the VBox GUI. There is a dedicated 'Machine -> Add' option for that. It should ask you whether you want to regenerate UUIDs if there is a conflict.

There is a 'central' file VirtualBox.xml that aggregates data about all the currently registered VMs, all their disks UUIDs (one per individual snapshot) and machines UUIDs, among other stuff. This data is also duplicated in the VM's .vbox file and should always match. If you want to manually move VM files around you should remove the machine (right click -> Remove) and then after doing all the manual changes (like recovering the older version from backup, etc.) re-add with 'Machine -> Add'. Also, each time you create a snapshot some new UUIDs are added in both places.

The option to 'clone' from the GUI should automatically re-create all the UUIDs to not to conflict with the original, so its not just copying the files verbatim.

You can also take a pick on what disks (and their differential images) are currently registered and to which VMs and snapshots they are attached via 'File -> Tools -> Virtual Media Manager'. It also allows for a lot of operations on these disks via its GUI.

If you are sure that your VM copies are consistent, conflict-free and self-contained (not referring outside their directory, like when you do a 'linked clone'), you can try removing (not deleting!) all the machines, removing all the settings for VBox and re-importing the .vbox files for your VMs and there should me no more conflicts.

Other than that, I can strongly recommend asking directly on the VBox forums, there is a really helpful and involved community that will try to help you for sure: https://forums.virtualbox.org/index.php

They helped me numerous times there. Should give much better results than just googling the answer, as your problems are definitely not typical, especially the one with hanging snapshots. I've been using VirtualBox for over 10 years, I have currently over 50 different VMs of all sorts registered just on my current machine, with no conflicts and still: never had any problem with snapshots like you do.

Fingers crossed!

I am fairly convinced the issue arose from using the Snapshot option in the guest interface. I won't be doing that again any time soon. I did a Snapshot while the machine was powered off and it was quick with the .VDI being only about 2.5GB and the system is booting from that Snapshot right now.

Robocopy copies bit by bit verbatim including permissions and does not rely on Windows Explorer which is why it never slows down during hefty file operations and doesn't keep using more RAM. I mirrored everything on a mechanical drive to an SSD twice in the last couple of days, both about 500GB of data and it only took at most 40 minutes to do. Explorer would have choked half way through. My entire system is SSD now including the drive housing my VMs and they load much faster.

I was mistaken. What I thought were sliders were a bullet point icon, the blue dots you mentioned. I see something like that and i think mixer but I'm a guitar player first and geek second.

Still fighting with the audio issue but I suspect VB is not seeing the Realtek AC97 in my MB properly as the host options are Default, Windows Audio Session, Windows DirectSound or Null, no other options. Re-installing the host audio drivers fixes it for a while but I think VB is doing something odd there. After so long it stops working again. I've scoured their forums and most of the posts are Linux hosts so of no help. I suspect installing VB on my Win11 box would resolve this but then again would negate the need for VB in the first place.

[AGuyWithAComputer]

Depreciations happen all the time, but its not like there will be no software updated for Win7 to reflect that. There are also projects like VxKex and backported browsers that will keep Win7 alive for at least a few years. And it is worth mentioning that I'm not immortal, so I don't really care what will happen in 50 years

My experience there is completely different. This applies to all the OSes, not just windows, and I remember at least a few times when after an update the system wouldn't even boot. I like setting things up my way and then expect for them to be working the next day. Also, the next year. Not happening with constant surprises / updates.

Also, no one really cares about backward compatibility and you can see it everywhere - constant Internet access is assumed and required. Even technologies like dockers which seem to be engineered to provide some form of archiving 'the working state' are quite volatile - you cannot really replicate anything byte-for-byte which means that constant fixing of libraries that just worked yesterday will provide food for my family for years to come

It's a matter of choice - and I'm glad that - at least to some degree - it still exists. Win7 is one of the options. Hopefully, the choice will never disappear completely, although I suppose it will get thinner.

Nope, I like uptime measured in months instead, as restarting everything is a huge chore for me. Preparing for shutdown, then afterwards decrypting, mounting, logging in, starting tasks again, making sure they're really the same as before etc. is not exactly a relaxing experience. If you're just browsing the web and answering emails, it's not a problem. Anything more complicated and you're constantly wasting time. Like, you say you're an admin - are you really restarting all the machines in the server room, just 'because'?

Yes, being a network administrator you'd think that

Sounds like you've made your system overly complicated. I reboot mine in less than a minute and most things are back to where I left them.

I reboot desktops regularly. Servers not so much

[AGuyWithAComputer]

I do have a Win11 box set up. I simply don't care for the simpleton interface of Win10/11. The Win10 and 11 VMs completely negate the TLS issue, the browsers installed are the latest stable versions.

The Wife's computer has only generic software on it so it will "upgrade" to 11 just fine and she has to use Win10 at work and is already numb to it. The only thing the Win7 file/print server does is house shares and share the laser jet and inkjet printers. The only thing the Media PC does is connect to my media server which has no need for point to point encryption. Occasionally a google search and if it comes to it that will downgrade to Win10/11 just fine.

I suspect better than half of the people out there have a screen saver set. Sleep on my 110V systems has been more of a nuisance than a benefit however my 3 laptops are set to sleep. I have no mechanical disks in my workstation any more so sleep is nearly pointless there. My point is settings that were once intuitive to find are now buried dialogs deep and search is actually faster. Most people simply "use" a computer. I "utilize" it. There is a difference.

There are numerous endpoint security options out there and nearly all can disable ANY USB port on ANY connected PC either by using ADDS or proprietary client modules and has been around for a VERY long time. I was also an network administrator (back in the day before everything was CLICK) and also had hundreds of clients across 4 states. Some locations DID in fact disable USB ports and optical drives as the second largest threat to corporate security is detachable media and the first employee's themselves.

At the last place I worked I helped IT with a test a week before Infosec training was due to roll out. I set up 20 thumb drives (large ones) with a small utility that would launch in the background upon insertion and send a report to IT as to who inserted it at which workstation and when then quietly delete itself. I left them laying around in places like the break room and bathrooms or the edge of aisles. Every single one was inserted in a work machine. Every single one. Endpoint was immediately hardened and USB use was tightly controlled after that.

As far as drivers and forced updates go, MS has their heads firmly inserted up their collective asses. I've fought more driver issues since 10 came out (on older systems) than I've had sex and I'm in no way a cold fish. With Win7 I was able to uninstall and block updates that broke something else on the machine. Not any more. Now if I'm lucky there's a reg hack to fix it.

As you are a network admin I can see how you would feel certain things are not "mainstream" but I also had hundreds of clients that were not corporate that DID have software and hardware other than work related on their systems. Most had a screen saver set up despite the fact they were using LCD/LED monitors.

My desktop uses nearly 200W when Idle. Power is expensive here, especially in the summer. Unless I need it for a specific function, it's off. Even still, my monitors sleep instead of screen saver when it's on doing things I don't want it to sleep for. My experience is the opposite, it's rare that we have someone ask to set a screen saver.

I can see end users doing that with random flash drives. I've had a client that had physical locks installed in USB ports to prevent drives being plugged in. Since most people can't use a computer without a mouse, it was rather effective.

Anyway, not to derail your thread or anything. have fun

[ms-dfav]

Sounds like you've made your system overly complicated. I reboot mine in less than a minute and most things are back to where I left them.

I reboot desktops regularly. Servers not so much

Well, it has to be complicated, I am that special . Seriously though, I am doing a lot of different things - well, in fact, it is the computers that are doing all the work for me, but the credit is still mine. No way around it in my case.

[ms-dfav]

At the last place I worked I helped IT with a test a week before Infosec training was due to roll out. I set up 20 thumb drives (large ones) with a small utility that would launch in the background upon insertion and send a report to IT as to who inserted it at which workstation and when then quietly delete itself. I left them laying around in places like the break room and bathrooms or the edge of aisles. Every single one was inserted in a work machine. Every single one. Endpoint was immediately hardened and USB use was tightly controlled after that.

Of course usually people would do that - if there are no real consequences I mean. What I was (indirectly) referring to is that despite being hired to do the serious job, where being security-minded is a big part of it, I am still treated like a child - which also hinders my ability to do my job properly. There is a breaking point and after that... I'm going to react, let's leave it at that. Its like sending soldiers to a war but with plastic guns so that they will not hurt themselves... If you cannot trust someone's integrity and honesty, you really shouldn't hire them.

I am fairly convinced the issue arose from using the Snapshot option in the guest interface. I won't be doing that again any time soon. I did a Snapshot while the machine was powered off and it was quick with the .VDI being only about 2.5GB and the system is booting from that Snapshot right now.

This seems strange, as when you create a snapshot, it creates additional 2MB (that is megabytes, that's why it should be fast) long differential disk image file for every disk connected (you can configure excludes called 'writethrough disks' but that's beside the point) so if you have only a single .vdi image then something is definitely missing there. The differential ones should land in the 'Snaphots' subdirectory and after that all the previous .vdi files become frozen / immutable, only the newly created one (per disk) - intially 2MB long, and with a brand new random UUID - is made writable.

Also, a side note: in your tutorial there is a suggestion to use 'Pre-allocate Full Size'. This is really not needed and just causes the 'root' vdi file (or the only one in the case of not using snapshots) to blow up to its maximum size, despite (initally) containing just empty sectors (zero-filled). All your backups afterwards also have to be needlessly big. I see no real benefits there.

Sorry to hear that you gave up. These things can be stressful, and you know that I know that

[NewMelle]

My system reboots every night automatically as does my wife's as well as the file/print server and the Media PC is shut down when we're done with it each night and I have WOL set to wake it up at 3pm before we sit down to a meal and a movie. It's a well known fact Windoze leaks memory. Even my Win11 box over time eats RAM so it reboots every night as well. A little at a time but over time it adds up. That and some of the software I have resident in RAM is not as well behaved as it should be.

My workstation is the hub fore EVERYTHING and has been for years. Backups, updates, media server, fetching and sorting mail automatically, remote shutdown of all running systems during power failure and so on. It HAS to be up and ready when I need to use it, not asleep, not hibernating, ready. My wife's PC is set to sleep after 30 minutes as she does not need immediate access to anything on it.

All the systems here are SSD save for the file/print server for obvious space reasons. It uses about 300 watts at full bore (300W power supply). The file/print server is a bookshelf that uses max 150 watts (45 for the CPU) and uses a mobile CPU. It's that small but it's job is simple. House shares and printers, that's it. I don't game so my PC doesn't need a hefty power supply to push a power hungry vid card (GTX -960) or CPU (AMD FX-6300) and all the drives in it are SSD. Even the laser printer goes to sleep.

Every light in this house is new LED now so I am power conscious.

I had both corporate and private clients. At two locations I personally installed the endpoint security and it allowed me to disable USB storage without disabling the mouse/keyboard but back then i had to install the client on all the workstations. AD and ADDS remote silent install wasn't around yet. Once we rolled out ADDS at some of the locations imagine my sheer joy at being able to install user specific software from the comfort of my workstation.

Well hell, VB caused a bluescreen and trashed the VM, even the snapshots, no bootable media found. Robocopy fixed it though. It probably happened because I switched the default audio device on the host from the Realtek to the Focusrite in an effort to get audio working again. VB is doing something hinky with audio passthrough but I can live without it.

[NewMelle]

Of course usually people would do that - if there are no real consequences I mean. What I was (indirectly) referring to is that despite being hired to do the serious job, where being security-minded is a big part of it, I am still treated like a child - which also hinders my ability to do my job properly. There is a breaking point and after that... I'm going to react, let's leave it at that. Its like sending soldiers to a war but with plastic guns so that they will not hurt themselves... If you cannot trust someone's integrity and honesty, you really shouldn't hire them.
This seems strange, as when you create a snapshot, it creates additional 2MB (that is megabytes, that's why it should be fast) long differential disk image file for every disk connected (you can configure excludes called 'writethrough disks' but that's beside the point) so if you have only a single .vdi image then something is definitely missing there. The differential ones should land in the 'Snaphots' subdirectory and after that all the previous .vdi files become frozen / immutable, only the newly created one (per disk) - intially 2MB long, and with a brand new random UUID - is made writable.

Also, a side note: in your tutorial there is a suggestion to use 'Pre-allocate Full Size'. This is really not needed and just causes the 'root' vdi file (or the only one in the case of not using snapshots) to blow up to its maximum size, despite (initally) containing just empty sectors (zero-filled). All your backups afterwards also have to be needlessly big. I see no real benefits there.

Sorry to hear that you gave up. These things can be stressful, and you know that I know that

I can see your point about work. I am very security oriented but at work I was treated like any other moron using a work computer. It didn't matter, rules were rules despite the fact I knew more than a third of the IT staff.

I tried dynamically sized but Win11 failed every time and I tried four times and did not succeed until I allocated the entire disk. The Win11 install can HARDLY be considered speedy in any sense of the word and as we know after SF re-encode I hate watching creeping progress bars.

I only posted what finally worked for me and 65GB is a pittance these days. A 1TB SSD is as little as $55 for a Hong Kong Phooey on Amazon (I pay more for Crucial or Sandisk) so space is not an issue.

It did create a new .VDI in the Snapshot directory which I was wrong about, it is about 2MB, not 2GB. I always make sure I have a backup before making any significant changes. I even clone my Win7 boot drive before making significant changes. A 500GB SSD is cheap insurance and Restore Points although a noble idea never really worked right for a loaded down system like mine.

I suspect we've probably seen the last version of VB to support Win7.

[ms-dfav]

I tried dynamically sized but Win11 failed every time and I tried four times and did not succeed until I allocated the entire disk. The Win11 install can HARDLY be considered speedy in any sense of the word and as we know after SF re-encode I hate watching creeping progress bars.

I only posted what finally worked for me ...

The only difference is that VirtualBox is progressively appending non-zero-filled sectors to the .vdi file, increasing its size over time. Pure, simple file operations. If these somehow fail, this is an indicator that you have a much bigger problem to solve, possibly hardware-related. EDIT: now when I think of it, it does exactly the same thing with snapshot-related .vdi files, which would explain your failures with snapshots. I think this is worth investigating further.

I suspect we've probably seen the last version of VB to support Win7.

I was convinced about this too a year ago, with version 7.0.8. The next one (v7.0.10) was completely broken for Win7 (while working fine for Win10/Win11) to the point of broken drivers inside (it simply refused to install but even after hacking the installer, it bluscreened instead)... but now - a year after that - everything is fixed in v7.0.18. So, I suppose, they are still trying to at least not break things for Win7.

The only reason I even tried installing it was your post there, so thank you for that!

Also, even if you're right, you can still run Win11 on it today, which means far less Win7 compatibility problems for us in years to come.

Things are looking good!

[NewMelle]

The only thing I haven't been able to fix is the audio and I think it has something to do with with how VirtualBox Manager interfaces with the host audio controller. If I re-install the host audio controller drivers sound comes back but it is only temporary. I shut down the VM and VB Manager and fire it back up and the audio quits working again. It's not the guest, it's VB Manager on the host. Win11 or Linux, makes no difference. No audio.

I have check for updates turned off. If it works (even fairly well) don't fix it. I'm using robocopy to back up the machines as I have tons of disk space (really cheap compared to even 5 years ago).

Another thing I learned the hard way with this version is once you install the guest additions in Win11 guest eject the additions media BEFORE restarting or it hangs much of the time rebooting.

[NewMelle]

I have updated the walk through to include downloading the version I am using now and if they disappear I can put them on Google Drive.

http://www.therathole.org/win11-vbox/

[NewMelle]

Well, I think I have the audio fixed, time will tell. I first had to re-install the hosts audio drivers (in my case Realtek AC97). Then before I fired up any guests I set the Host Audio Driver to " Windows Audio Session" and the Audio Contoller to "Intel HD Audio." There's something funky about how VBox Manager handles the Default setting that breaks the audio. Audio is still working after exiting and restarting VBox Manager and in between system boots.

I've edited the walk through to include this.

But, now that I've said that.....

I'm not going to troubleshoot snapshots right now. I have a way to back up the systems without it that I know works.

[Stan001]

As another user stated, you are one of the few with issues with snapshots.
They also noted you had issues creating a Win11 Vbox if not selecting Pre-allocate Full Size. In My Win11 Vbox I did not need to do that. Now note it also most of these were created under either Win10 or Win11.
I did do Win10 and Win11 boxes on both VMware player (free), but hard to get a download, and on Vbox
With vbox or VMware I never have it locate the whole size, because as you use it and needs space it allocates more as it needs it. I can even then set them all to 500GB HD space that way.
Most times I think many use Vms for Ubuntu and things like that which I have done in the past, not many issues there either.
Now I don't have access to Windows 7 anymore, as none of my devices would work any longer with that operating system.
I tried and stayed with a laptop, a well-known brand, with Win 7 and even things on that stopped working.
Windows 7 even updated a few times and included Edge browser, just to find out months later NO browser loaded worked.
Tried Chrome, Edge, and Opera. Since I could not get the laptop updated to Win10 I finally ran the battery down and did a system rest and disposed of it.
My one other system came with Win 8, 8.1, yeah blah, but it worked. When free updates to Win10 came, I updated.
After I got another system it only came with Win11 unless you wanted to wait extra time, I think I recall they wanted to add an extra charge as well.
Sadly Winn11 is a bust, even with 32gig memory and a nvme main drive as well as it’s a I9 things, at times, still seem to lag.
I know many will be forced over time from Win 10 to Win 11 as support for Win10 is still planned early next year, unless you're willing to pay for extended support.

I hope you get things figured out seems you have a system that works for you by coping the current states instead of snapshots, since it works, and you have been successful stay with what works.
I have little care for sound, but I know to even attempt to get sound I needed the VM set to Intel HD Audio at very minimum. In ubuntu, I did not even use sound.
I can see if I use the VM's more I may care more for sound, but really not sure even at that.

I noted that, so many are trying to hype Win12, which seems still mostly a pipe dream, but also what's to say it will be better, or it may even be worse than Win11.
One of the few things I liked about Win11, it seemed to accept more things and either had the driver ready or found it, quickly. For some reason, Win10 seemed to have more trouble for me in this respect.

[NewMelle]

If it works for you that's great! All I stated is what worked for me (leaving out what didn't). I tried four times to install Win11 without allocating the entire disk and it failed all four times before the last reboot. Remember, this is running VBox on Win7. It probably shouldn't work but it does for the most part, the important part, supporting Win10 and up apps.

Disk space is cheap and if the working solution is to allocate a measly 65GB it's not hurting me at all. Currently I have 39TB of storage attached to my machine and the file/print server. I wait for drives to go on sale and often the externals are actually cheaper than the bare internals. Just bust it open and stick it in the box or pop it on and go.

ms-dfav also ran into issues with snapshots on Win7. It would be a nice feature to have operational but at least there is a simple workaround. The main thing is I have Win11 running to support apps that are no longer compatible with Win7 without having to use the KVM to switch back and forth between the Win7 box and the Win11 box. Some Win7 users don't have the KVM option.

Windows networking took a dive with Win10 on. Additionally it is not very well behaved in a mixed environment and it's piss poor attempts to automatically attach network shared printers and other network devices is so laughable it hurts. Every single one I had to uninstall, turn that garbage off, and re-install manually.

I spent the entire day today trying to get the Win7 box updated to 10 then 11 but it always fails the migration stages. I have a LOT installed on this machine and it is probably choking on that. I know of at least four other musicians that have built killer home recording studios on Win7 investing thousands and are in the same boat as me with regards to upgrade, too much installed and too much money lost in unusable plugins with Win10/11.

Something tells me you're running VBox on a Win10/11 machine. Although that's great, it doesn't behave quite the same running it on Win7. I do have a Win11 box and it screams now that I've trimmed all the fat and corrected the issues with drivers and such. It uses about 10% of 32G fully loaded.

I haven't experienced the same issues you did with that laptop. However, I turned off updates a long time ago and only turned it on to grab the few i knew I needed then turned it off again. Too many updates broke others or broke parts of the system. GetWX taught me that hard lesson. All my devices run fine on Win7, matter of fact I get much lower latency with the Scarlett Solo on Win7 than I do on a very new Win10 machine. Win7 4ms, Win11 14ms and even that is choppy at times.

The audio is preferred but not mandatory. I may be doing other things wile SF downloads and I know to check when it chimes it is done. I just have to keep glancing back now. I am pretty sure it is because the MB is older and VBox doesn't understand this. I switched the system to the Solo as it is newer so we'll see how that goes.