3D BD to movie only BDMV possible?

[glenns]

Ok then try this make sure fab burning engine is set in fab settings or this won't work.Take store brought disk put in computer burner and clone the disk if using version 8 (burn the disk in version 9) Why because clone will copy all the ssif files needed to make a 3d file clone is a 1-1 copy so do this first.

Then take the clone (ISO) see if the media player or blu ray player can play it if not fine.

Now take the iso put it back in fab and under blu-ray copy go to main movie (output stays at bd50) and at the page bottom change the output box from your blu-ray burner to a fab folder where you put fab.Pull down that box with the little arrow in it and it should bring up where you store your fab folders.

Example mine says c\users/my name/document/dvdfab/

Then hit the next button that brings you to the 3d page,their the make 3d blu ray is checked for you by default if this doesn't work on your next try you un check that and check make sbs bluray to make a data side by side 3d file the same size as the blu ray or close to it.

When done you have two fab files make sure you are using the file folder you just made its in a main movie folder the other folder has the clone iso in it.Try with both devices and see if this works if not try the side by side clone in both devices then report back here with your results.And one more thing will a 3d blu ray in your blu rays players drive will it stream from the drive?

[EVT]

The solution is simple but costs about $140.00 buy a new 3d media player.You like i have the worlds most expensive hobby electronics.In 1-2 years everything changes you have to buy all new equipment end of story.

The tax man sometimes gives refunds from the loans we give them all year so us electronics loving consumers use their tax refund for this purpose unless of cause you make a lot and pay.Trust me when i say this a new media player will make you happy and last another 2 years or so till 4k comes out in players we can afford.

Now if you have electronic sickness that's a need for the smell of new electronics or compulsion to buy something new when it comes out welcome yes we gather here at Fab.

Now i can give you a way to get that new shiny media player with a credit card that's only used to pay that one item back at $10 a month let me know i have lot of experience with getting things i want or must have.

I can't see how a new media player would help. As far as Blu-ray is concerned the last generation of Dune and PCH players are as good as its going to get (full Blu-ray menu support). While some new players including from those two companies support 3D BD iso they only support the lite version, which has no support for forced subtitles or multi-part movies such as those with seamless branching so playing back something like Avatar from a 3D BD ISO would mean you don't have the forced subtitles turned on when they need to be.

Basically, from what I know there is no dedicated hardware media player that supports 3D BD ISO or BDMV with forced subtitles and seamless branching - however, my Blu-ray player does support 3D BDMV as long as there's no Cinavia.

In any case, has anyone been able to play a 3D BDMV folder created by DVDFab (full disc or movie-only) on a hardware media player - my suspicion is that to avoid ripping at double the size (due to the nature 3D BDs) the BDMV requires mounting as an ISO through the mini ISO - I can't see why if a software player requires that the mini ISO is mounted that a hardware player would not.

I have reached this conclusion because the BDMV complete rips I have created with the other software program that are double the size do not need mounting as an ISO to play on my software player (3D PC running TMT5) or my Blu-ray media player (Oppo 103).

Thus if anyone can confirm whether a 3D BDMV folder can or cannot be played on a hardware media player natively without mounting as an ISO I can quite trying to make DVDFab do something it wasn't designed to do.

[glenns]

Evt: I recommended you get a new media player because their are many advanced 3d models out their and maybe one may meet most or all of your needs.
I have A Mecca they have 2 models that do 3d and stream.I have no trouble with using fabs 3d folders or iso's made with fab,no issues with compressed 3d files or side by side fab made files and no trouble with converted by fab 3d folders into smaller sizes or other containers.No Cinavia trouble.

I have regular dvds and blu ray dvds with hd sound and 7.1 sound i just don't have a problem nor do i here anyone complaining about Fab made files and their media player except for the bugs in the fab program that turn up every now and then but they normally get fixed.

I have almost every 3d movie made (198) and fab made them all and they play with my media player.Their all on a 3t hard drive in m2ts side by side format reduced to about 8gigs each with full hd sound some with 7.1 surround sound.Some i left at full resolution full 3d and a few in 25gig full 3d all play like new.Some are in folders most are iso's all fab made.

Now streaming i have no reason for nor sub titles so that part of my media player doesn't get used by me so i can't tell you about it but if you take the time to look at the internet sight you can get the details.

I do know it won't play all blu-rays menus but it has its own simple menu.You paid for a expensive blu ray player that can't get the job done you want with 3d files and cinavia and you don't seem to want to try to make side by sides in folder and iso formats to try to see if they work on one or the other the way i just told you about.I say lets go to the manual and see what can these devices handle and what they can't as this normally tells a great deal.

I did what i can for you.I don't like every feature of my media player theirs been about 5 updates in firmware to it and only a older update lights up my hd dts and Dolby digital light in my receiver all the other updates have the hd sound but it gets converted to pcm channels like the Sony play-station did at first so i use it with the older firmware i like.Others use the latest and greatest cause it provides features i don't use, bug fixes etc. so for each his own.

In my humble opinion i would try the side by side formats or spend the $140 for a new player that's all i can say.Good luck.

[EVT]

Evt: I recommended you get a new media player because their are many advanced 3d models out their and maybe one may meet most or all of your needs.
I have A Mecca they have 2 models that do 3d and stream.I have no trouble with using fabs 3d folders or iso's made with fab,no issues with compressed 3d files or side by side fab made files and no trouble with converted by fab 3d folders into smaller sizes or other containers.No Cinavia trouble.

I have regular dvds and blu ray dvds with hd sound and 7.1 sound i just don't have a problem nor do i here anyone complaining about Fab made files and their media player except for the bugs in the fab program that turn up every now and then but they normally get fixed.

I have almost every 3d movie made (198) and fab made them all and they play with my media player.Their all on a 3t hard drive in m2ts side by side format reduced to about 8gigs each with full hd sound some with 7.1 surround sound.Some i left at full resolution full 3d and a few in 25gig full 3d all play like new.Some are in folders most are iso's all fab made.

Now streaming i have no reason for nor sub titles so that part of my media player doesn't get used by me so i can't tell you about it but if you take the time to look at the internet sight you can get the details.

I do know it won't play all blu-rays menus but it has its own simple menu.You paid for a expensive blu ray player that can't get the job done you want with 3d files and cinavia and you don't seem to want to try to make side by sides in folder and iso formats to try to see if they work on one or the other the way i just told you about.I say lets go to the manual and see what can these devices handle and what they can't as this normally tells a great deal.

I did what i can for you.I don't like every feature of my media player theirs been about 5 updates in firmware to it and only a older update lights up my hd dts and Dolby digital light in my receiver all the other updates have the hd sound but it gets converted to pcm channels like the Sony play-station did at first so i use it with the older firmware i like.Others use the latest and greatest cause it provides features i don't use, bug fixes etc. so for each his own.

In my humble opinion i would try the side by side formats or spend the $140 for a new player that's all i can say.Good luck.

Hey glenns,

I do appreciate the feedback and let me say wow (198 3d titles!). As someone who has a very large collection of blu-ray's I didn't even know there were 198 3D titles available (at least not on blu-ray). I noticed you listed all the different types of ISO and folder rips you created - can you double check if any of them are uncompressed 3D BDMV folders - if one of them is then that would answer my question as that's what I have my doubts about.

In any case, I though I would share with you and others some of my observations concerning media players and playback of 3D blu-rays in different formats. Also, for any other users who might have knowledge on the issue - please share whether you have been been able to playback an uncompressed 3D BDMV folder (full disc or main movie - it doesn't matter) on either a hardware of software player as a native BDMV folder (i.e. without mounting the mini iso)?

Observations re: Side-by-Side blu-ray copy:

As far as creating a side-by-side blu-ray is concerned, this format works reasonably except that it doesn't create 3D subtitles so I would say that side-by-side MKV using DVDFab 3D ripper is probably a better option.

Although I don't know what happens if you apply compression (as I have no real desire to compress my blu-rays'). Essentially, when you start playback before you manually or your media player automatically triggers the side-by-side 2D image to be merged into a single 3D image subtitles will appear centered on your screen as they should. However, once the two images are merged into a 3D image the subtitles will be split and pushed to opposite sides of the screen making them unreadable.

While subtitles are not in general needed by most of us - we all need forced subtitles that are present for parts of a high percentage of movies (e.g. to understand the Navi spoken parts in Avatar). In that light, blu-ray SBS is not useable for all discs whereas 3D SBS MKV is.

Blu-Ray BDMV/ISO:

Personally, I don't think any of the 3D media players out there right now are acceptable for uncompressed blu-ray as a significant percentage of blu-ray's have seamless branching and forced subtitles which players that only support bd-lite (all new players since they avoid a blu-ray license so that Cinavia is not required) cannot playback properly - e.g. forced subtitles would not be turned on by default in Avatar and movies such as those by Pixar which are split into many files will have pauses between chapters as the player switches to the next file. So as far as BD ISO/BDMV all new players (the only players that support 3D in a BD ISO/BDMV folder) are to my mind unacceptable.

Solutions:

A media player that will play all 3D blu-rays uncompressed without issue is not really out there yet (that I know of anyway). Given Cinavia doesn't look like it's going away the solution will likely be a player that supports MVC in an MKV and also supports forced subtitles. I believe there is one player that supports MVC in an MKV (but I can't recall the name at the moment) but it doesn't support forced subtitles.

For the moment, only a 1.4 HDMI PC with a 3D player pre-dating Cinavia will playback all 3D blu-ray ISOs without issue (that is if you're lucky enough to get an HTPC working without any bugs - not an insignificant task). For others using a hardware media player, I would suggest 3D SBS in an MKV as created by 3D ripper, it does apply compression but you can set the bit rate rather high and it deal with forced subtitles correctly.

[glenns]

EVT: To answer your question YES i have uncompressed blu ray 3d titles direct from disk through fab directly to my 3t drive. I put another one on today called Cirque-du-soleil-3d I used full disk and unchecked make miniso file just to show you 2 things ist that my media player played the 3d movie from a folder in full 3d uncompressed without miniso.I hit the subtitle button just for you their were 25 different subtitle choices to pick from so this movie was meant for world wide viewing.I also can stream the 3d movie on my computer from a folder with power dvd 10 without miniso.You need the miniso to play a iso on your computer.

Then i went to my manual just for you under intelligent settings they have
TS seamless playback on/off- When on the group files in the same directory will be played back seamlessly note- it's only valid for ts/ps file not for avi,mkv files.
off- plays files 1 by 1 with 2 second intervals between files.

BDMV navigation-direct play- plays main movie immediately
BD LITE-use bd-lite menue system
BD1.0 use bd profile 1.0 menue system
(Set for ask the user you choice the menue or start right away.)
So the bluray menues on the disk only play if they are 1.0 menues or regular dvd menues.The light menues use a time code and bar to jump ahead or back or by chapters without pictures.
bdmv default subtitle-sets the default subtitle language track for playing BDMV
subtitle automation recognitio-auto recognizes subtitle encoding type such as UTFT,BIG5,GB2312,etc.
subtitle font directory-sets the font path for external subtitles
subtitle space-sets the pace between subtitles when using dual-subtitle feature.

[EVT]

[QUOTE=glenns;134379]EVT: To answer your question YES i have uncompressed blu ray 3d titles direct from disk through fab directly to my 3t drive. I put another one on today called Cirque-du-soleil-3d I used full disk and unchecked make miniso file just to show you 2 things ist that my media player played the 3d movie from a folder in full 3d uncompressed without miniso.I hit the subtitle button just for you their were 25 different subtitle choices to pick from so this movie was meant for world wide viewing.I also can stream the 3d movie on my computer from a folder with power dvd 10 without miniso.You need the miniso to play a iso on your computer.

Then i went to my manual just for you under intelligent settings they have
TS seamless playback on/off- When on the group files in the same directory will be played back seamlessly note- it's only valid for ts/ps file not for avi,mkv files.
off- plays files 1 by 1 with 2 second intervals between files.

BDMV navigation-direct play- plays main movie immediately
BD LITE-use bd-lite menue system
BD1.0 use bd profile 1.0 menue system
(Set for ask the user you choice the menue or start right away.)
So the bluray menues on the disk only play if they are 1.0 menues or regular dvd menues.The light menues use a time code and bar to jump ahead or back or by chapters without pictures.
bdmv default subtitle-sets the default subtitle language track for playing BDMV
subtitle automation recognitio-auto recognizes subtitle encoding type such as UTFT,BIG5,GB2312,etc.
subtitle font directory-sets the font path for external subtitles
subtitle space-sets the pace between subtitles when using dual-subtitle feature.

Thanks glenns, I will try to create another BDMV folder to see if I can get it to work on TMT5 or PowerDVD 11 that way I will be able to rule out a problem with what I'm creating with DVDFab.

As far as subtitles, what i was suggesting is the player you have which is bd lite and does not support full menus is unable to read the blu-ray structure and turn on forced subtitles on its own the way a media player (or PowerDVD on your PC) that supports menus can - it's not about getting the fancy menus it's about reading the folder structure and knowing when to turn on forced subs. This issue is well documented and applicable to all current media players with bd-lite instead of full menu support to avoid the blu-ray license and cinavia which goes along with it - not a single one of them gets it right. Don't take my word for it you can check the several threads devoted to this topic on AVSforum or reviews of some of the most popular recent 3D bd-lite players from Dune, PCH and mede8r on meadiasmartserver.net

Also, yes, bd-lite players are theoretically supposed to handle seamless branching but generally they do not do it very well - though you don't get gaps that last very long changes transitions from file-to-file frequently include frame drops and brief dropouts in audio.

Basically, my point is that since cinavia has come along I think for anyone that isn't too invested in BDMV/ISO, MKV is a far safer route for compatability.

In any case, thanks again for verifying that uncompressed BDMV folders will playback natively in 3D.

[glenns]

Like i said before i have no use for subtitles to me they distract you from watching the picture.I believe you should watch a movie the way a director envisioned it.

You sit back and relax and see all of what the camera filmed not stop and read some crap missing whats going on in the picture.I would much rather see a dubbed picture than read translations.

Some projection systems cut them off the screen anyway if their in the black bars.Like i said to each his own.A brief translation like in avatar well that's different and ok if brief.

[CBR929]

Hi glenns
I have removed your link as I think it will fall under forum rules
I have not found anything on their site yet too where as you buy the disc only renting.
CBR929

[EVT]

Like i said before i have no use for subtitles to me they distract you from watching the picture.I believe you should watch a movie the way a director envisioned it.

You sit back and relax and see all of what the camera filmed not stop and read some crap missing whats going on in the picture.I would much rather see a dubbed picture than read translations.

Some projection systems cut them off the screen anyway if their in the black bars.Like i said to each his own.A brief translation like in avatar well that's different and ok if brief.

I think your misunderstanding what I'm referring to. Forced subtitles are intended by the director to be seen. In some cases they come burned into the video but in other cases where a blu-ray or dvd is intended to be sold in multiple regions with different languages reliance is placed on forced player generated subtitles.

So for example - the Godfather, possibly the best film ever made includes certain parts in Italian (Sicilian dialect to be precise). The intent of Francis Ford Copolla (the director) was for the viewer to understand what was being said so the film contains english subtitles for these parts. When you playback an original blu-ray disc in a blu-ray player there is no requirement for you to turn these subtitles on the disc information tells the player when specifically to turn these subtitles on.

So to sum it up, if your media player doesn't have support for forced subtitles your are missing important parts of the movie - to me (and really to anyone who cares about the movies) that is an unacceptable compromise. That's why I suggest you look into MKV. In your case in particular, since you seem willing to compress the quality of your movies DVDFab has the option to burn in just forced subtitles directly into the video and seamless branching isn't an issue with MKV (other than the odd disc having an error during the encoding process).

[GregiBoy]

EVT, you have it totally right about subs....

I use MKV all the time but I go a few steps further. I extract the forced sub to either SUB/IDX or PGS and then remux them into the MKV container using MKVMerge.

I then use the MKV Toolnix header editor to mark them as forced and my media players obey this instruction when playing the resultant MKV.

I do a lot of other stuff like artwork, NFO files, multiple audio tracks and multiple subs muxed in the file which is not possible with Fab.

[glenns]

EVT:I did find one movie in 3d that had subtitles (Avatar) I think like your talking about when the creatures talk in their native tongue translations come up in English without me hitting the subtitle button.Unless these are printed on the film itself.

I tried to make a side by side mkv just chapter 10-11 with forced sub titles only and its a no go maybe because fab can't display those titles in a side by side picture.I also tried with regular subtitles with the same results.

When the same movie was compressed to 25 gig full 3d the sub titles are their and they played on my media player without hitting the subtitle button for the native tongue translations.So the answer is easy for me with the very few disks that have these type translations at least in 3d just compress to 25 full 3d problem solved.

[EVT]

EVT, you have it totally right about subs....

I use MKV all the time but I go a few steps further. I extract the forced sub to either SUB/IDX or PGS and then remux them into the MKV container using MKVMerge.

I then use the MKV Toolnix header editor to mark them as forced and my media players obey this instruction when playing the resultant MKV.

I do a lot of other stuff like artwork, NFO files, multiple audio tracks and multiple subs muxed in the file which is not possible with Fab.

GregiBoy,

I'm not too familiar with all the MKV options as for the past two years I've generally only ripped to movie-only blu-ray ISOs which my Dune media players support flawlessly (seamless branching and forced subs included) except for 3D blu-ray's that is. However, I would think if your goal is to just keep the PGS subtitles that there must be software that does that after which you can use the header editor as you already pointed out to mark the subtitles as forced.

By the way, what are you using for a media player? I ask as there are still many media players that can't recognize the forced subtitle flag so it's nice to have a list of working players.

[EVT]

[QUOTE=glenns;134447]Evt:I have not run into movies with subtitles in my 3d collection like the Godfather you talked about. i like to ask how many movies have subtitles like the Godfather in all the movies you own?

Same question for anyone else.What are we talking about 5-6 made in the USA movies? Solution is simple to me just burn disks for the few movies that don't work in your media player or leave them on your computer drive to be used with a software player.

About compressing the video
i am a fussy video guy if the Fab compressed video looked bad compressed i wouldn't do it but in my humble option they look good enough to me even on my 60 inch plasma and my 8 foot projection screen.If your not compressing your blu rays at 30-40 gigs each even a 4t hard drive will fill up in no time so your going to need to spend a lot on hard drives to keep them uncompressed.

You always have the store brought disk at full resolution should you not be happy with the compressed disk or if you have the title problem you still have your master disk so it should really be a non problem in my humble option but as always to each his own.


Hey glenns,

In my collection, I would estimate that 1 in 4 movies either has forced subtitles or seamless branching which is why I suggest that in general anyone who doesn't have one of the few players (e.g. Dune and PCH really) that support blu-ray menus, that MKV is a better bet and the price of a media player that plays MKVs but not blu-ray menus is significantly cheaper too.

Regarding whether to compress or not, it's a personal decision. For me, the way I see it I generally buy 2 TB drives for my server for about $100 and my movie-only ISOs average about 25 GB in size so the cost per movie in terms of storage works out to at most $1.50 - to me that's worth it but again everyone will have a different opinion on what's worth it.

[EVT]

EVT:I did find one movie in 3d that had subtitles (Avatar) I think like your talking about when the creatures talk in their native tongue translations come up in English without me hitting the subtitle button.Unless these are printed on the film itself.

I tried to make a side by side mkv just chapter 10-11 with forced sub titles only and its a no go maybe because fab can't display those titles in a side by side picture.I also tried with regular subtitles with the same results.

When the same movie was compressed to 25 gig full 3d the sub titles are their and they played on my media player without hitting the subtitle button for the native tongue translations.So the answer is easy for me with the very few disks that have these type translations at least in 3d just compress to 25 full 3d problem solved.

Glenns,

Your observations are a bit perplexing. Fab can in fact display the forced subtitles in an MKV if you burn them into the video - I have successfully created several that do this. If you try do the same thing without burning them into the video then it will not work when you go from 2D to 3D which is what i suspect is happening to you.

Now, regarding your compressed 25gb example, is that a BDMV or ISO you are talking about? If so, what you are suggesting doesn't seem possible as when you compress to a BDMV or ISO using DVDFab my understanding is it does not burn the subtitles into the video and if your media player can't read the blu-ray menu structure there's nothing to tell the media player to turn on the subtitles.

[90312]

glenns and EVT, I have removed references to that web site once again, don't post it again! Final warning!