My investigations into audio sync issue

[midiwall]

I do have a piece of good news this morning... This file is _good_:

• MICHAEL_JACKSONS_avi_h264_720x404_Fast_1046kbps_23 976fps_7051_ADMIN.avi

So... someone asked this back a page, but has any one been able to encode Max Payne? Maybe this is just a trouble movie that needs to be addressed in other ways?

[GregiBoy]

Having a quick look at your MediaInfo results confirms what I suspected. The title is poorly authored and Fab is using that info for the encode.

The main IFO file defines the frame rate at 23.970 whereas the VOB info shows 23.976 frame rate.

Although this discrepancy is small, it will result in audio sync problems.

As I can't emulate this here (All my titles are 25fps), can you try this please?

Download IFOEDIT
Modify VIDEO_TS.ifo to be 23.976 fps
Re-encode with Fab
Test and report back

[midiwall]

Having a quick look at your MediaInfo results confirms what I suspected. The title is poorly authored and Fab is using that info for the encode.

The main IFO file defines the frame rate at 23.970 whereas the VOB info shows 23.976 frame rate.

Although this discrepancy is small, it will result in audio sync problems.

As I can't emulate this here (All my titles are 25fps), can you try this please?

Download IFOEDIT
Modify VIDEO_TS.ifo to be 23.976 fps
Re-encode with Fab
Test and report back

Okie Doke.. So, opening the IFO with IfoEdit gives me a lot of info, but I don't see the frame rate anywhere.

Offset 0x100 of the VMGM_MAT looks interesting as that's aspect ratio, compression method, source resolution, etc. But nothing about frame rate.

If I look at VTS_01_0.IFO that has the program chain in it, with the chapters broken out. IfoEdit shows all the chapters as "30fps", and it's not editable.

I'm fine using the hex editor, but I dunno where I'm poking. I found a description of the IFO file format, but no info on frame rate. Is it being computed from other data?

ref:

http://www.mpucoder.com/DVD/ifo.html

I found another app called "DGPullDown" which promises to fix up frame rates in IFOs, but it crashes in trying to start the conversion.

ref:

http://neuron2.net/dgpulldown/dgpulldown.html

[GregiBoy]

Sorry mate for giving you the incorrect information on IFOEdit. I'll do a little more research myself.

I think we certainly have identified where the problem lies though.

I am also now convinced that the reason that I do not have your problems is that all my rips have checked have 25.0fps set in all areas (I'm in Australia) so there is little chance of Fab getting it wrong...

If the framerate is incorrectly set in the authoring, what chance has Fab of getting it right?

Just one other test I'd like you to try.

Rip "Max Payne" to your HDD but use "Main Movie" mode and post the MediaInfo data on that rip.

[midiwall]

If the framerate is incorrectly set in the authoring, what chance has Fab of getting it right?

Agreed... But given that some of the testing was done with forcing frame rate, then it confirms that there are issues in DVDFab with "override" enforcement. (like was mentioned before)

Rip "Max Payne" to your HDD but use "Main Movie" mode and post the MediaInfo data on that rip.

Done - but this should be the same as the previous info I posted up for the "HDD source" image.

• General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.BUP
  Format : DVD Video
  Format profile : Menu
  File size : 6.00 KiB
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 29.970 fps
  Standard : NTSC
  
  General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
  Format : DVD Video
  Format profile : Menu
  File size : 6.00 KiB
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 29.970 fps
  Standard : NTSC
  
  General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.BUP
  Format : DVD Video
  Format profile : Program
  File size : 64.0 KiB
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 29.970 fps
  Standard : NTSC
  
  Audio
  ID : 128 (0x80)
  Format : AC-3
  Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
  Channel(s) : 6 channels
  Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
  Language : English
  
  Menu
  List (Audio) : 0
  
  General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.IFO
  Format : DVD Video
  Format profile : Program
  File size : 64.0 KiB
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 29.970 fps
  Standard : NTSC
  
  Audio
  ID : 128 (0x80)
  Format : AC-3
  Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
  Channel(s) : 6 channels
  Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
  Language : English
  
  Menu
  List (Audio) : 0
  
  General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
  Format : MPEG-PS
  File size : 1 024 MiB
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Format profile : Main@Main
  Format settings, BVOP : Yes
  Format settings, Matrix : Default
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 23.976 fps
  Standard : Component
  Resolution : 8 bits
  Colorimetry : 4:2:0
  Scan type : Progressive
  Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
  Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.183
  
  Audio
  ID : 128 (0x80)
  Format : AC-3
  Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
  Format_Settings_ModeExtension : CM (complete main)
  Bit rate mode : Constant
  Bit rate : 448 Kbps
  Channel(s) : 6 channels
  Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
  Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
  
  Text
  ID : 224 (0xE0)-DVD-2
  Format : EIA-608
  Muxing mode : MPEG Video / DVD-Video
  Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
  Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)
  
  Menu
  
  General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.VOB
  Format : MPEG-PS
  File size : 1 024 MiB
  Duration : 8mn 34s
  Overall bit rate : 16.7 Mbps
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Format profile : Main@Main
  Format settings, BVOP : Yes
  Format settings, Matrix : Default
  Format_Settings_GOP : M=3, N=12
  Duration : 8mn 34s
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Bit rate : 15.6 Mbps
  Nominal bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 23.976 fps
  Standard : Component
  Resolution : 8 bits
  Colorimetry : 4:2:0
  Scan type : Progressive
  Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
  Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.881
  Stream size : 955 MiB (93%)
  
  Audio
  ID : 128 (0x80)
  Format : AC-3
  Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
  Format_Settings_ModeExtension : CM (complete main)
  Duration : 8mn 34s
  Bit rate mode : Constant
  Bit rate : 448 Kbps
  Channel(s) : 6 channels
  Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
  Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
  Video delay : -733ms
  Stream size : 27.5 MiB (3%)
  
  Text
  ID : 224 (0xE0)-DVD-2
  Format : EIA-608
  Muxing mode : MPEG Video / DVD-Video
  Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
  Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)
  
  Menu
  
  General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_3.VOB
  Format : MPEG-PS
  File size : 1 024 MiB
  Duration : 30mn 8s
  Overall bit rate : 4 749 Kbps
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Format profile : Main@Main
  Format settings, BVOP : Yes
  Format settings, Matrix : Default
  Duration : 30mn 8s
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Bit rate : 4 113 Kbps
  Nominal bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 23.976 fps
  Standard : Component
  Resolution : 8 bits
  Colorimetry : 4:2:0
  Scan type : Progressive
  Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
  Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.496
  Stream size : 887 MiB (87%)
  
  Audio
  ID : 128 (0x80)
  Format : AC-3
  Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
  Format_Settings_ModeExtension : CM (complete main)
  Duration : 30mn 8s
  Bit rate mode : Constant
  Bit rate : 448 Kbps
  Channel(s) : 6 channels
  Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
  Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
  Video delay : -358ms
  Stream size : 96.6 MiB (9%)
  
  Text
  ID : 224 (0xE0)-DVD-2
  Format : EIA-608
  Muxing mode : MPEG Video / DVD-Video
  Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
  Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)
  
  Menu
  
  General
  Complete name : V:\MAX_PAYNE\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_4.VOB
  Format : MPEG-PS
  File size : 819 MiB
  Duration : 7mn 39s
  Overall bit rate : 14.9 Mbps
  
  Video
  ID : 224 (0xE0)
  Format : MPEG Video
  Format version : Version 2
  Format profile : Main@Main
  Format settings, BVOP : Yes
  Format settings, Matrix : Default
  Duration : 7mn 39s
  Bit rate mode : Variable
  Bit rate : 13.9 Mbps
  Nominal bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
  Width : 720 pixels
  Height : 480 pixels
  Display aspect ratio : 16:9
  Frame rate : 23.976 fps
  Standard : Component
  Resolution : 8 bits
  Colorimetry : 4:2:0
  Scan type : Progressive
  Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
  Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.678
  Stream size : 762 MiB (93%)
  
  Audio
  ID : 128 (0x80)
  Format : AC-3
  Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
  Format_Settings_ModeExtension : CM (complete main)
  Duration : 7mn 39s
  Bit rate mode : Constant
  Bit rate : 448 Kbps
  Channel(s) : 6 channels
  Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
  Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
  Video delay : -956ms
  Stream size : 24.6 MiB (3%)

[GregiBoy]

This is really weird authoring, 29.97 specified in the IFO/BUPS & 23.976 in the actual VOB's.

This is what I think is getting Fab all confused. I have PM'd the developers referring to this thread for your results and that should certainly assist them in finding the logic problem within Fab or to add in a frame rate checking utility.

As I said, I am now positive that is why I have not been having any problems here in Oz as I have double checked ALL of my sources and they are all 25fps/25fps.

[midiwall]

Awesome. Thanks for all your help these past few days Greg.

[Bigford352]

This is really weird authoring, 29.97 specified in the IFO/BUPS & 23.976 in the actual VOB's.

This is what I think is getting Fab all confused. I have PM'd the developers referring to this thread for your results and that should certainly assist them in finding the logic problem within Fab or to add in a frame rate checking utility.

As I said, I am now positive that is why I have not been having any problems here in Oz as I have double checked ALL of my sources and they are all 25fps/25fps.

Sorry just ben lurking on the audio sync issue alot and after seeing the frame rate issue i wanted to look at a few of my dvd files and they all have 29.97 on ifo/bup and 23.976 on vob they was on doctor dolittle 1&2 and super troopers. I am interested to see a media info on a file with no sync issues and see how they compair?????

[GregiBoy]

Here's the MediaInfo on my rip of Star Trek 11. You will note that everything is 25.000fps.

General
Complete name : E:\FullDisc\STAR_TREK_XI_AU_PP\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.B UP
Format : DVD Video
Format profile : Menu
File size : 24.0 KiB
Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Bit rate mode : Variable
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Text
Format : RLE
Format/Info : Run-length encoding
Resolution : 2 bits
General
Complete name : E:\FullDisc\STAR_TREK_XI_AU_PP\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.I FO
Format : DVD Video
Format profile : Menu
File size : 24.0 KiB
Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Bit rate mode : Variable
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Text
Format : RLE
Format/Info : Run-length encoding
Resolution : 2 bits
General
Complete name : E:\FullDisc\STAR_TREK_XI_AU_PP\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.V OB
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 3.02 MiB
Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : No
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format_Settings_GOP : N=1
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 587 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.442
Text #1
ID : 32 (0x20)
Format : RLE
Format/Info : Run-length encoding
Text #2
ID : 33 (0x21)
Format : RLE
Format/Info : Run-length encoding
Menu
General
Complete name : E:\FullDisc\STAR_TREK_XI_AU_PP\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.B UP
Format : DVD Video
Format profile : Program
File size : 14.0 KiB
Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Bit rate mode : Variable
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Audio #1
ID : 128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Audio #2
ID : 129 (0x81)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Audio #3
ID : 130 (0x82)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Audio #4
ID : 131 (0x83)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Audio #5
ID : 132 (0x84)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Audio #6
ID : 133 (0x85)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Audio #7
ID : 134 (0x86)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Audio #8
ID : 135 (0x87)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

[Bigford352]

odd I have done a few conversions and audio seems fine i wonder if there is somthing else???

[GregiBoy]

Same here.

I have done literally thousands with no problems.

This frame rate issue is the only thing that I've been able to put my finger on.

odd I have done a few conversions and audio seems fine i wonder if there is somthing else???

[Bigford352]

now i am looking at super troopers i think there may be a slight audio sync issue so slight it is hard to tell and the frame rates are off on that one I wonder how to fix this?

[happnatious1]

Dont know if its related but if I use 2 pass encoding on the movie "knowing" the audio is out of sync,however 1 pass and it's ok.

[midiwall]

now i am looking at super troopers i think there may be a slight audio sync issue so slight it is hard to tell and the frame rates are off on that one I wonder how to fix this?

I've looked closely at a number of movies and thought there may be a slight sync issue, it almost seems to be "the norm". But what we're talking about here is an issue that starts small, and ends up being _seconds_ off at a point 90min into a film. That supports Greg's theory about variance in sync rates.

There's an older thread here around this topic where the math was played out and it fits pretty dern well to what folks are seeing.

Dont know if its related but if I use 2 pass encoding on the movie "knowing" the audio is out of sync,however 1 pass and it's ok.

Interesting, and it could be a fix for some titles. But looking back through the variations I tried with Max Payne, it's not a fix for this title.

[roadpebble]

I have also been having the issue with the audio being out of sync. I have tried it on Versions 5.2.3.2, 6.2.2.0, and 7.0.4.0. All of these exhibit the same audio sync problem, or what seems to be runaway audio, the audio sync progressively gets worse and worse as the movie plays. This is, however, only true for DVD's with a frame rate of 23.976. I have encoded videos with a frame rate of 29.97 and had no problems with those. I had seen the thread that Midiwall is referring to. I wonder if it is an internal math problem in the program.